tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post113423209798282973..comments2024-03-25T06:39:42.081-04:00Comments on Bonfire of the Vanities: The Islamic Threat: same as it ever wasFr Martin Foxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1134241222648269342005-12-10T14:00:00.000-05:002005-12-10T14:00:00.000-05:00...before someone else calls me on it, I'll correc......before someone else calls me on it, I'll correct my own goof:<BR/><BR/>"...representative government has its roots long before the Enlightenment..."<BR/><BR/>Indeed -- it predates Christianity!<BR/><BR/>What I would have done better to point out is that, while the idea of the republic, and of democracy, came from pre-Christian Rome and Greece, what Christianity contributed was the insistence on universal human dignity, and an essential human equality; which, nonetheless, took quite awhile to emerge in law. But it was an essential joining, nonetheless.<BR/><BR/>Thus, I'd "revise and extend" my prior remarks thusly.Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1134239268693849132005-12-10T13:27:00.000-05:002005-12-10T13:27:00.000-05:00Fr Larry:I'd say I'm making a couple of points, on...Fr Larry:<BR/><BR/>I'd say I'm making a couple of points, one subordinate to the other.<BR/><BR/>My primary point is that the "peaceful, tolerant Islam" we're told is the main reality, is elusive. I'm all for it; but I strongly suspect there's a lot of wishful thinking and "projection"--if I'm misusing that psychological term--in these repeated assertions.<BR/><BR/>I certainly hope Mark is right that we have reason to hope it will come, through natural development. I hope I am wrong in my negative assessment of Islam. But I am concerned that too many in our day lack the courage (I do not speak of anyone in this conversation) to say inpolitic, unpleasant things about Islam, and that could be a real problem.<BR/><BR/>My subordinate point, about the Crusades, is not that they were wonderful, or even should have happened at all. My point was simply to show why I believe they are not the grievance they are made out to be. I almost did leave them out; I included the subject to pre-empt that response. (Although I think there was more nobility in the Crusaders -- not all of them, but many of them -- even if their aims were misguided.)<BR/><BR/>Mark, you're correct that it would be inaccurate to project backward, into Christian history, the sort of religious tolerance and, even more, freedom, that we experience in the West today. (It remains to be seen whether what we experience now, will endure, and whether a bolder secular climate helps or hurts; but that's another argument.)<BR/><BR/>But the religious freedom we value today has roots in Christianity, as does the whole matrix of inalienable rights and limited government. No doubt, the so-called Enlightenment gets credit, and I won't deny it its due, but representative government has its roots long before the Enlightenment, as does the notion of law prevailing over human dictate. It's a long process of development.<BR/><BR/>It's also true that Christendom, if I may run the risk of inexactitude in using that term, did impose its own dhimmitude on Jews and Muslims when it had the chance. <BR/><BR/>But, based on my extremely limited understanding of the Koran, it seems to me there was a good deal less in Islamic tradition to give them an uneasy conscience about that, than there in in the Christian tradition to give Christians, in time, an uneasy conscience about the matter.<BR/><BR/>(I welcome someone to point me toward some exposition of the Koran that would address this latter point.)<BR/><BR/>Mark, you make many good points, but I think the example of northern Ireland and the Aryan "Christians" is a bit strained.Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1134236079878303802005-12-10T12:34:00.000-05:002005-12-10T12:34:00.000-05:00I agree with Mark Anthony this much: we're not tal...I agree with Mark Anthony this much: we're not talking about unmitigated evil when we speak of Islam. What we're talking about, in my humble opinion, is a religious heritage that is objectively dysfunctional.<BR/><BR/>I am ready to admit that Christianity shares in dysfunction, and that other approaches to life, including so-called "secular humanism" are also dysfunctional. I think all of us would do well to look at our own traditions against objectively positive standards, if we can find such. I also think we will never find such standards if we rely solely on our own knowledge and understanding. Dialog is always necessary and indicated. The problem comes in establishing real dialog.<BR/><BR/>I also think Fr. Martin's primary point was not about who is without fault, but rather who is more at fault and who remains primarily at fault. Mark, your comment doesn't address that, as far as I can tell.Fr. Larry Gearharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06187388268532224727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1134235238018277532005-12-10T12:20:00.000-05:002005-12-10T12:20:00.000-05:00I think it would be a mistake to term this "Islamo...I think it would be a mistake to term this "Islamofascism," as many neo-cons do. Fascism was about control of the state, per se. Islam is about control of one's conscience.<BR/><BR/>Your posting successfully (in my opinion) points to the religious and historical roots of the problem. Islamic culture is not characterized by openness to outside ideas. Rather, it shares fearful insularity with modern day political correctness. It is like a house built on sand (as in Jesus' parable), but with the wrong materials and using the wrong plan. When the rains come, it tends to collapse. Knowing this, both Islamicists and many in the cultural left tend to react with vitriol and force to anything that questions the established wisdom, rather than engaging the issues.<BR/><BR/>That's why Saudi Arabia could not abide the presence of a church. That's why China today cannot abide the presence of the Church. That's why Christmas is being purged of Christ.Fr. Larry Gearharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06187388268532224727noreply@blogger.com