tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post116622007200859336..comments2024-03-29T08:14:32.748-04:00Comments on Bonfire of the Vanities: Pope Benedict about to make his mark on the liturgy?Fr Martin Foxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166990043689190022006-12-24T14:54:00.000-05:002006-12-24T14:54:00.000-05:00Fr. Fox,You did a marvelous job.David wonders why ...Fr. Fox,<BR/><BR/>You did a marvelous job.<BR/><BR/>David wonders why we just cannot celebrate the mass of Paul VI in Latin. Certainly the current mass in Latin with both the people and the priest facing God together would be a vast improvement over much current liturgical practice.<BR/><BR/>The Pian or Tridentine mass is not "one grounded in the Reformation." Pius V modestly and respectfully pared back to basics a 1,000+ year old rite. There was no break with the past. There was a break in 1969. That break violated the rights of the faithful guaranteed by Vatican II's Sacrosanctum Concilium to having the old rite preserved.<BR/><BR/>This is the problem that Benedict as Cardinal Ratzinger pointed to. The liturgy has always been reformed through continuity. Genuine development was interrupted by the Missal of 1969. The Missal issued in 1965 right after the Council already met the requirements of the Council. One can legitimately ask whether Pope Paul VI exceeded his authority when he changed the liturgy as he did with the 1969 Missal. However one answers that question, the pope believes the availability of the old rite is necessary for the organic growth of the liturgy envisioned by the liturgical movement and the Council.<BR/><BR/>Chant is sneaking back into the mass. Chant is singing so that we in the pews can join in. Today (Fourth Sunday of Advent) in our parish (Blessed Sacrament, Wichita) we did the sung parts to the tune of “O Come O Come Emmanuel” (a 9th century chant) in a setting done by Richard Proulx. No one knew they were singing chant, so no one complained. The communion hymn was also a ninth century chant (“Creator of the stars of night”) sung in English. <BR/><BR/>Chant like the Roman Rite is a cultural link back to the Jewish Christianity of Peter and John. Its undying quality is the oral embodiment of church’s timeless existence.<BR/><BR/>-Malcolm Harris (Fr. Fox,<BR/><BR/>You did a marvelous job.<BR/><BR/>David wonders why we just cannot celebrate the mass of Paul VI in Latin. Certainly the current mass in Latin with both the people and the priest facing God together would be a vast improvement over much current liturgical practice.<BR/><BR/>The Pian or Tridentine mass is not "one grounded in the Reformation." Pius V modestly and respectfully pared back to basics a 1,000+ year old rite. There was no break with the past. There was a break in 1969. That break violated the rights of the faithful guaranteed by Vatican II's Sacrosanctum Concilium to having the old rite preserved.<BR/><BR/>This is the problem that Benedict as Cardinal Ratzinger pointed to. The liturgy has always been reformed through continuity. Genuine development was interrupted by the Missal of 1969. The Missal issued in 1965 right after the Council already met the requirements of the Council. One can legitimately ask whether Pope Paul VI exceeded his authority when he changed the liturgy as he did with the 1969 Missal. However one answers that question, the pope believes the availability of the old rite is necessary for the organic growth of the liturgy envisioned by the liturgical movement and the Council.<BR/><BR/>Chant is sneaking back into the mass. Chant is singing so that we in the pews can join in. Today (Fourth Sunday of Advent) in our parish (Blessed Sacrament, Wichita) we did the sung parts to the tune of “O Come O Come Emmanuel” (a 9th century chant) in a setting done by Richard Proulx. No one knew they were singing chant, so no one complained. The communion hymn was also a ninth century chant (“Creator of the stars of night”) sung in English. <BR/><BR/>Chant like the Roman Rite is a cultural link back to the Jewish Christianity of Peter and John. Its undying quality is the oral embodiment of church’s timeless existence.<BR/><BR/>-Malcolm Harris<BR/>http://ex-corde-ecclesiae.blogspot.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166561106304476192006-12-19T15:45:00.000-05:002006-12-19T15:45:00.000-05:00I hadn't heard about a revision of the lectionary....I hadn't heard about a revision of the lectionary. Are they revising the translation or revising the selections?<BR/><BR/>MarieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166487052552333322006-12-18T19:10:00.000-05:002006-12-18T19:10:00.000-05:00Great post, Father.I often wonder that if the issu...Great post, Father.<BR/><BR/>I often wonder that if the issue had been the Mass and nothing but the Mass, that the indult could have easily have been granted a long time ago. It's the other nonsense that has gone along with the discussion on the Mass that has held things up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166410396355407602006-12-17T21:53:00.000-05:002006-12-17T21:53:00.000-05:00Thanks for the advance news Father. I'll be very ...Thanks for the advance news Father. I'll be very curious to see how (whether) these changes are implemented in my parish.<BR/><BR/>Looking forward to it!Sir Galen of Bristolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249011691189216258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166407232195906702006-12-17T21:00:00.000-05:002006-12-17T21:00:00.000-05:00Father,Well said. May our Beloved Lord fill you wi...Father,<BR/><BR/>Well said.<BR/> <BR/>May our Beloved Lord fill you with many blessings this week.<BR/><BR/>OhevinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166405590394697652006-12-17T20:33:00.000-05:002006-12-17T20:33:00.000-05:00Ohevin:Thanks for your generous comments.My reason...Ohevin:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your generous comments.<BR/><BR/>My reason for calling myself a "Vatican II baby" was hardly to suggest what lies before was "irrelevant." Rather, my point was simply to point out I am not "nostalgic," and I am not complaining about the lack of the prior rite. <BR/><BR/>Too many folks approach this subject with a high degree of partisanship, and folks are expected to take sides: either for Vatican II and the current rite, as usually celebrated; or you are for Tradition, the old rite, and you want to be rid of the current rite.<BR/><BR/>Well, guess what? I'm not a partisan on this matter, and I refuse to become one. I am very put off by those (you find them at various sites) equate being pro-Tradition with rejecting the Vatican II reform of the liturgy. <BR/><BR/>(And, I might add, such an approach may prove to be very counterproductive, if not destructive.)<BR/><BR/>It shouldn't be necessary to say this, but alas, perhaps it is: I fully embrace Vatican II. <BR/><BR/>I agree with the holy father's "hermeneutic of continuity" which -- if I may say so -- I was arguing in the seminary (although I didn't come up with the pithy name): "Two churches ("pre-" and "post-Vatican II") equals no Church." I consider it presumptuous to challenge the Council's judgment in calling for reforms.<BR/><BR/>That said -- the task of authentically implementing the mandates of the Council remains far from complete. That is not terribly surprising -- it's only been 40 years.Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166400002744103152006-12-17T19:00:00.000-05:002006-12-17T19:00:00.000-05:00Fr. Fox,A couple of weeks ago you had a similar re...Fr. Fox,<BR/><BR/>A couple of weeks ago you had a similar reflection about the liturgical changes coming from Rome. It now appears that there are serious liturgical changes from our Holy Father that may no longer be ignored. Your reflection is measured and balanced.<BR/><BR/>It is unfortunate that so many allowed a "Spirit of Vatican II" to lead and guide them as opposed to the Holy Spirit that you rightfully allude to. You mention that you are a "vatican II baby." The problem with this minset, through no fault of your own, is that it is presumptious. This mindset would have many believe that the 1,960 years prior to Vatican II are significantly irrelevant. I believe you are an exception to this, but over many years I have heard priest say that after the Council they felt they<BR/>had a mandate to reshape the ecclesiology of Church, Sacraments, etc. Obviously they are in profound error. One Bishop in our area personnaly told me he would no longer enroll prospective young priest candidates in a<BR/>certain regional major seminary because of this very error. He had seen the end product of this particular Seminary and branded it as "deformed training." He was onto something. <BR/><BR/>You say you are neither advocate nor resistant to the "Old rite." I would like to think that you could be more definitive (positive?) about this Eucharisitic Celebration for the simple fact that it is a sure form in which your Saviour and mine fulfills His promise "to be with us always until the end of the age." Having said this, I do not know if I will be able to participate in this Eucharistic Celebration. However, because of the great efficacious and meritorious effect it will provide, I am glad of its import to our Lord's Church here on earth. <BR/><BR/>You are right about the fact that so many of the Lord's faithful (bishops, priest, and laity) have bought into something that was never grounded in actual fact. In this sense it was a "false spirit" of Vatican II that led to the mindset that so much of previous Church history could be ignored and put in the closet. Perhaps this is the "smoke in the sanctuary" that Pope Paul VI purportedly referred to regarding certain interpretations of Council Documments. One can only speculate. What we do know is that the present Pontiff is preparing to do something that, as Vicar of Christ, he feels is very important to Roman Catholic liturgical life.<BR/><BR/>Yes, Father Fox, the Holy Spirit is going to tie a rope around His mystical Bride on earth and take Her to liturgical places that some members would rather not go. I look forward to this gift from the Holy Spirit; a gift of Heavely nourishement for those who enjoy working in Christ vineyards. <BR/><BR/>I, too, amplify what others above said--your thoughts are well ordered on this topic. It now appears that you and your fellow priest will have some work to do. In this we will pray for you.<BR/><BR/>OhevinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166314320829307502006-12-16T19:12:00.000-05:002006-12-16T19:12:00.000-05:00Exactly right. Between the "spirit of Vatican II a...Exactly right. Between the "spirit of Vatican II allows if not requires Priests dressed as Barney to celebrate the Mass" folks, and the "Anything in English is trash" people, lies the liturgical mean. May we swiftly find it, and may we be amenable to help from Rome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166305324742696772006-12-16T16:42:00.000-05:002006-12-16T16:42:00.000-05:00thank you fr.fox, please eat healthy, exercise, ta...thank you fr.fox, please eat healthy, exercise, take vitamins, get your teeth cleaned every six months, have a check-up yearly, we need you to be around for A VERY LONG TIME.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166300499213385652006-12-16T15:21:00.000-05:002006-12-16T15:21:00.000-05:00Any transition will only be as "bumpy" as the USCC...Any transition will only be as "bumpy" as the USCCB wants it to be. The U.S. bishops know very well the significance of these changes. They know, that the Holy Father knows, the great spiritual value contained within the Latin language and the position Ad Orientem.<BR/>But do they care? Most want no part of this, history says so. The USCCB is interested in what Rome says only when it pertains to war or capital punishment.<BR/>So, expect the changes desired by the Vicar of Christ for the benefit of his flock to be resisted ad infinitum. Again, history says so.<BR/>A.M.D.G.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166296180979641212006-12-16T14:09:00.000-05:002006-12-16T14:09:00.000-05:00On a purely personal preference level I am delight...On a purely personal preference level I am delighted to hear of the returns of Latin and Gregorian chant. Bring 'em on!<BR/> Many thanks, Fr. Fox, for spending the time to bring us this info.<BR/>JuliaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166293991263201112006-12-16T13:33:00.000-05:002006-12-16T13:33:00.000-05:00What an awesome post, Father. I appreciate your i...What an awesome post, Father. I appreciate your insight and how well it is expressed.....<BR/><BR/>Wow! This is all so interesting and wonderfully exciting. I can't wait for it to all come to pass. Now it looks as if the Holy Father will bring the mass back to where it should have been the whole time.<BR/><BR/>The question I have is, is there any structure or method by which Rome can enforce such changes on the Bishops? Or for that matter, the local Bishops impose them on each parish?<BR/><BR/>The fact that the current Mass, "by the book", is drastically different from the actual Sunday Mass at most parishes (including improper procedures by Eucharistic ministers, hand-holding, clapping, interjection of ad-libbed phrases to the prayers, etc.) would seem to indicate an inability (or perhaps unwillingness) of Bishops to keep the parishes in line. That being the case, how on earth are they going to get them to include Latin in their masses? Not to mention the TLM!<BR/><BR/>Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166251065078717082006-12-16T01:37:00.000-05:002006-12-16T01:37:00.000-05:00This is mostly a FWIW . . .Would love to see Latin...This is mostly a FWIW . . .<BR/>Would love to see Latin return. I definitely think ad orientem would be valuable both in the newer round and thrust type churches and the more traditional long aisle places. It emphasizes the equality with which we all approach God rather than the priest above us all. <BR/><BR/>However, I am bothered by opening up the Tridentine Mass. Why don't we just encourage the Novus Ordo in Latin. We need a NEW order of the Mass that responds to the insights that drove VatII rather than one grounded in the Reformation. Catholics should be once again known by our Latin across the world. <BR/><BR/>The Church moves through history, it is incarnational. We need music that speaks to the modern experience rather than the Reformation/Early Modern experience, however that doesn't mean we toss off hundreds of years of accumulated work, rather it needs to exist in a sort of dialogs. <BR/><BR/>A little rambling... It is the Advent season after all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166228944517058652006-12-15T19:29:00.000-05:002006-12-15T19:29:00.000-05:00Our curate said that the brievary is also going to...Our curate said that the brievary is also going to be revised 'the intercessions are out dated'. I hadn't heard this, is it correct?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1166222767681767472006-12-15T17:46:00.000-05:002006-12-15T17:46:00.000-05:00It's all very interesting. I was basically kicked...It's all very interesting. I was basically kicked off The Worship Commission at our parish when I mentioned the L word (Latin) and how we were supposed to occasionally use it for the ordinary of the mass. It stared a huge arguement and some said that Spanish would be a more appropriate foreign language to use (even though we have no Spanish speaking families currently in our parish). Little did they know I was a Spanish major in college who also studied French and linguistics and totally disagreed with that sentiment.<BR/><BR/>I hope that people realize the value in using Latin, not just to retain the rich history and universality of our church, but so that they can hear the beautiful poetry of many of the hymns and gregorian chant that were originally in Latin. They lose the meter, rythmn and flow of the original language in translation to other languages.<BR/><BR/>There is also a huge educational value in teaching our children some Latin as well. Ask the premier public school in Cincinnati about that. They require all jur high students to study Latin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com