tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post1362703050876295708..comments2024-03-25T06:39:42.081-04:00Comments on Bonfire of the Vanities: Palin doubles down on baptism-torture remarkFr Martin Foxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-66351425365408406492014-05-01T12:54:16.760-04:002014-05-01T12:54:16.760-04:00That is good enough, Father Fox. :)That is good enough, Father Fox. :)Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11200221356189037181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-76017907308763231042014-05-01T11:12:14.258-04:002014-05-01T11:12:14.258-04:00Gramps (daughter) said:
So while you are in your ...Gramps (daughter) said:<br /><br /><i>So while you are in your safe nest and out of harms way, how about getting yourself sent over to a terrorist state for a tour of duty as chaplin and hear what the troops have to say about the issue of waterboarding.</i><br /><br />Anyone with a lick of sense and decency is deeply grateful to our military personnel and their families for incredible sacrifices -- that goes for your daughter and her husband.<br /><br />But the notion that only those who have been in combat earn the right to talk about these subjects is wrong -- and deeply offensive.<br /><br />For the record: In 1980, I volunteered to serve in the military (as part of ROTC) but was turned away, because I was taking medication at the time that disqualified me. So while it's true I've never served in the military, it's not for lack of willingness. <br /><br />And of course, Gramps' daughter couldn't have known that, which makes her argument doubly unfortunate. There are many priests who have served in the military, many priests serving right now. That I am not one of them is irrelevant.<br /><br />As to whether I have the right to address this subject...<br /><br />Holy Mother Church has the right to speak to this subject. That right -- and solemn duty -- was conferred on her by the Lord Jesus Christ himself, who said to the Apostles, he who hears you, hears me.<br /><br />It is our Lord Jesus Christ who has given the Church, in the person of the Apostles, and their successors, the pope and bishops, the authority to teach in his name.<br /><br />Now, if you're not a Catholic, you don't believe that. But this is what Catholics believe. <br /><br />Of course, I'm not a bishop. But when the Archbishop of Cincinnati ordained me, one of the solemn promises I made was to teach the Faith -- in its entirety. And (before ordination) I swore an oath, on the Gospels, that I would uphold the teachings of the Church, in full. <br /><br />So you ask what gives me the right to speak to this?<br /><br />Jesus Christ does, through his Church. And the duty.<br /><br />Is that good enough?Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-36567332690151110192014-05-01T01:10:13.805-04:002014-05-01T01:10:13.805-04:00By the way, the letter above from gramps, myself, ...By the way, the letter above from gramps, myself, is one sent to me by my daughter, the wife of the 25 year veteran. She sent it to me when I forwarded your posts about Palin. Meant to add that to the post above, but forgot before I posted. She loves Palin as do most of our troops. grampshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16795231771533653170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-80249209251222286102014-05-01T01:07:47.849-04:002014-05-01T01:07:47.849-04:00My husband has been to both Iraq and Afghanistan m...My husband has been to both Iraq and Afghanistan multiple times to fight in this so called "war" on terror. With each tour, the restrictions on our soldiers have grown to the point that they are simply being sent over there to be killed or injured. This so called commander in chief Obama has tied the hands of the military so completely that there is little hope the men and women carry into harms way of a safe return. He has turned it into a social experiment for his most absurd ideas. We are fighting a group of people who have no morals or values and no rules of any kind. And now, we have announced a timetable for leaving, and anyone who backs our troops up knows they will soon be left alone with the worst of the bunch to die horrible deaths of real torture. The so called torture of "water boarding" is nothing like that or other countries water boarding. We use massive restrictions which harms no one. Fear is created and it has proven effective. Now, we get little intelligence to help us save ourselves and so the country has been forced to a lot more intrusive intelligence gathering on everyone including our own citizens. The funny thing is we cannot water board a terrorist, but Obama on his own decision can send drone rockets to kill them. I note in your whining about this that you do not take up the drone issue or the massive intrusion on the constitution and freedom by the NSA. Of course Americans have a lot more to fear in terror from our own IRS and other agencies than the terrorist do of waterboarding. So while you are in your safe nest and out of harms way, how about getting yourself sent over to a terrorist state for a tour of duty as chaplin and hear what the troops have to say about the issue of waterboarding. grampshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16795231771533653170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-7406431931084223732014-05-01T00:45:36.050-04:002014-05-01T00:45:36.050-04:00Father Martin is right. I like Palin but those com...Father Martin is right. I like Palin but those comments were most unfortunate.Lem the artificially intelligent https://www.blogger.com/profile/03569712564034666751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-83856398955983896212014-04-30T18:43:02.875-04:002014-04-30T18:43:02.875-04:00It is an illusion to think that conscience is what...It is an illusion to think that conscience is what is going to rule the day here.<br /><br />What I think doesn't really matter.<br /><br />When pressed into a battle for survival, people do what they have to do.<br /><br />Changing minds isn't going to change anything. We don't face the decision in its most stark terms at this moment.<br /><br />The decision will be made in the moment when there is no choice, and conscience will have nothing to do with the decision. The decision to survive will prevail.Shouting Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09813058890609756982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-6404241520123547162014-04-30T18:16:07.847-04:002014-04-30T18:16:07.847-04:00Fr. Martin,
Thank you for upholding Catholic tea...Fr. Martin,<br /><br /> Thank you for upholding Catholic teaching on torture here and at Father Z's. I've been through this exercise with other Catholics in 2009 and am not able to join the fight this time around. First, know that I am praying for your success in change minds -- something I was never able to accomplish even once, and second please have confidence that good reference material for your efforts is freely available on the internet if you should need it.spambot3049.q5fjksr.t90.tja.ji0yjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08866440180807615107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-46876261686033476312014-04-30T14:53:17.419-04:002014-04-30T14:53:17.419-04:00If we care about our welfare in the next life, we ...If we care about our welfare in the next life, we can never just do what we think we need to do in this life.<br /><br />That's a fact.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11200221356189037181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-79139732629532710132014-04-30T09:27:12.420-04:002014-04-30T09:27:12.420-04:00ST and all,
While "you do what you have to do...ST and all,<br />While "you do what you have to do" in war might suffice for Ms. Palin or others who have rejected Church teaching Catholics are bound by the Just War Doctrine and Catholic morality in general. <br />Torture is never permissible. By the definition of torture given in the CCC there is not question at all that waterboarding is torture. To say that it is alright because it produces results is an end justifies the mean argument which is undefendable in light of Church teaching. As is the indiscriminate bombing of cities and the use of nuclear weapons to bomb cities. Just because the U.S. has done it doesn't make it a morally justifiable act.TerryChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05643202804792947404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-49757232535606101362014-04-29T20:56:52.189-04:002014-04-29T20:56:52.189-04:00Ms. Palin's comments are truly heartfelt, in h...Ms. Palin's comments are truly heartfelt, in her mind. Unless a person has ever been in combat or had the taste of impending combat, you would not understand Palin's comments as being bravado, the same bravado that is taught to our service members while in training. There is a toughness in those words, a toughness that will ring in the heads of the Islamic fascists, because that is what they understand. Words are everything in the world, namby pamby dialogue that Obama difuses to our enemies does nothing to make them fearful of the USA. In context, waterboarding was used three times in the Guantanimo prison population, and was successful in obtaining pertinent information as to the whereabouts of OBL. There is much more to worry about in the USA than a Momma Grizzly, and it would be better to keep our minds on those things instead of Ms. Palin, she is not going to run for national office, she is nothing more than a cheerleader.Hoserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08224816012035167024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-35766108601131209812014-04-29T18:59:13.381-04:002014-04-29T18:59:13.381-04:00Second that, Shout.Second that, Shout.edutcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15033144261502435196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-44671027900528461582014-04-29T18:21:38.068-04:002014-04-29T18:21:38.068-04:00And, Fr. Fox, it is your job to try to pull us bac...And, Fr. Fox, it is your job to try to pull us back from the abyss of murder, torture and genocide...<br /><br />Your counsel is needed, but it may not always be possible to follow it completely.Shouting Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09813058890609756982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-68401233985549885882014-04-29T18:17:07.049-04:002014-04-29T18:17:07.049-04:00The devil has set the great conflict between good ...The devil has set the great conflict between good and evil in motion on this earth again, Fr. Fox.<br /><br />Each individual will be called upon to prove himself or herself.<br /><br />Some will find courage and peace. Others will collapse into cowardice and lose everything, including their humanity.<br /><br />It is not society that must prove itself. It is each individual.Shouting Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09813058890609756982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-76332295686978666902014-04-29T18:11:25.673-04:002014-04-29T18:11:25.673-04:00We're fighting for survival against an enemy t...We're fighting for survival against an enemy that has declared numerous times that it intends to destroy Judeo/Christian society.<br /><br />Yes, I know precisely what those tactics do to people.<br /><br />My father and my uncles fought through four years of the most hellish, no holds barred war in the history of the world during WWII. <br /><br />My late wife, Myrna, grew up in the midst of an unspeakably savage war in the Philippines.<br /><br />Some of us will be destroyed morally and psychologically by what we have to do. I know that quite well. One of my uncles lost his soul and, later, his mind, because of what he had to do in combat.<br /><br />My father was not destroyed, and he was among the liberators of Dachau. My father, in fact, was transformed into a triumphantly spiritual man, hardened by the fire.<br /><br />My wife suffered unimaginable torture and retaliated in kind. She became an incredibly brilliant and compassionate spirit as a result. Hers was the most morally piercing intellect I have ever encountered.<br /><br />We're fighting for the survival of Western Christian society. I'm sorry that we will have to descend into the pit of Hell with the savages, but we will have no choice.<br /><br />It looks like that battle is going to be fought out here on the soild of the U.S., and that many of our fellow countrymen will be Quislings.<br /><br />May God have mercy on us.Shouting Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09813058890609756982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-10183303987747814802014-04-29T18:00:21.252-04:002014-04-29T18:00:21.252-04:00No, Padre, you were right. Then.
In war (and we&#...No, Padre, you were right. Then.<br /><br />In war (and we're at war, don't kid yourself), you do what you have to.<br /><br />At one time, we thought we'd never bomb cities, then WWII came along.<br /><br />what she's doing is saying that, if it came to a showdown, she'd protect American lives.<br /><br />Which is one Hell (pardon my French) of a lot more than the slugs currently in charge seem to want to do.edutcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15033144261502435196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-55699240142708390402014-04-29T17:46:25.635-04:002014-04-29T17:46:25.635-04:00ST:
Have you considered that when you train our s...ST:<br /><br />Have you considered that when you train our soldiers how to do unspeakable, barbarous things to the "baddies" -- and your comments make clear that you won't rule out <i>anything</i> ("war doesn't have any rules")...<br /><br />That at some point, you -- or I -- may be classified as "baddies"?<br /><br />And the government -- at your behest -- has lots of people who are quite ready to do those unspeakable things...to you?<br /><br />Why are we fighting this war, if -- in order to win -- we must become barbarians?<br /><br />Please explain what it is we're fighting <i>for</i> in such a war?Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-37664350352432010882014-04-29T17:42:49.390-04:002014-04-29T17:42:49.390-04:00Torturing enemy combatants isn't stripping awa...Torturing enemy combatants isn't stripping away "our rights." They don't have any rights.<br /><br />War doesn't have any rules, Fr. Fox.<br /><br />I suspect we'll have to do what we have to do as time passes. We'll come to you for confession.<br /><br />I don't make heroes or heroines out of any politician. Ms. Palin is speaking the truth about a horrible reality that I think is coming to us whether we want it or not.<br /><br />This already is a very dirty war. It's going to get much worse.Shouting Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09813058890609756982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-23781043031452135912014-04-29T16:07:52.991-04:002014-04-29T16:07:52.991-04:00fIn Palin's address, she could have meant bapt...fIn Palin's address, she could have meant baptism as a common noun, indicating an introduction, similar to the commonly used phrase, "a baptism of fire", not a sacrament of our Church.<br />Let's not be too quick to condemn a zealous patriot.cavalierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00851956310193341297noreply@blogger.com