tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post2178166159415734560..comments2024-03-25T06:39:42.081-04:00Comments on Bonfire of the Vanities: Why priests should pray the Roman CanonFr Martin Foxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-25944475839031783712008-10-07T09:28:00.000-04:002008-10-07T09:28:00.000-04:00I just stumbled upon this and wanted to make a few...I just stumbled upon this and wanted to make a few comments. The Roman Cannon was in earlier times called the Liturgy of St. Peter. It was the original Cannon of Mass in Rome if we are to believe the Church. It eventually fell out of use and there were a number of different cannons floating around but he Gallican was the main Cannon. Around 1200 or so several religious orders began with a rule for religious life that they would only use the liturgy of St. Peter, which at the time was only used on the feast of the chair of St. Peter. It is said that St. Francis requested the eariest copies of the liturgy from Rome and was given a Syriac version with a Latin translation sown to the it. Fastforward a houndred years and many people were attending Mass at the chapels run by religious orders that used the Roman Cannon "liturgy of St. Peter" and were rejecting many of the liturgical reforms of the Pope of that era (kind of like today). The Pope seeing how popular the Roman Cannon was decided to stop tinkering with the Gallican Cannon and just replace it and all the others all together. This did not happen over night but other prayers did begin to give way to the Roman Cannon. By the end of the Council of Trent there was the Roman Cannon as the undisputed winner and the Mozarabic and Ambrosian rites as localally important but not universal cannons. <BR/><BR/>Another thing we should note is that the "liturgy of St. Peter" does exist in the Greek and Slavonic schismatic churches and a Syriac version exist in the Syriac Churches. It is not used often, from what I understand only on St. Peter's feast day in Antioch but it exist. It potentially is the oldest of all the liturgies. <BR/><BR/>One last point is that the difference in liturgy in the eastern churches is not the same as we have with different optional prayers or replacable prayers. It is more akin to the the Mass of Paul VI or Mass of B. John XIII. If they do a liturgy they have to do that one liturgy, entirely and correctly or not at all. Just as we must do Mass according to Paul VI entirely and correctly or not at all, or do Mass of B. John XIII entirely and correctly or not at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-35875188027418514662008-03-20T19:09:00.000-04:002008-03-20T19:09:00.000-04:00These days I am able to assist at traditional mass...These days I am able to assist at traditional masses almost exclusively, but japhy's helpful reference to <A HREF="http://www.adoremus.org/9-11-96-FolsomEuch.html" REL="nofollow">From One Eucharistic Prayer to Many</A> helped clear up a point about the new mass which I had come across a few years ago.<BR/><BR/>Someone I know had complained that the first eucharistic prayer should be used on Sundays, whereas we nearly always heard the second.<BR/>The norms which Fr. Folsom quotes in his article are not so prescriptive as that, but seem to be clear nonetheless in strongly recommending eucharistic prayers I and III for Sundays. I think it's good news if more priests than hitherto are respecting these norms. I find "we thank you for counting us worthy" in eucharistic prayer II especially off-putting.Simon Platthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16196039882299400327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-82491318067967377432008-03-14T10:18:00.000-04:002008-03-14T10:18:00.000-04:00Fr. Fox, I generally prefer EP1, but I could live ...Fr. Fox, <BR/><BR/>I generally prefer EP1, but I could live with some, slight, infrequent variation when/where not inappropriate.<BR/><BR/>AMDG,<BR/><BR/>-J.testsjmghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02809499971767143167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-39930339819213376142008-03-13T18:19:00.000-04:002008-03-13T18:19:00.000-04:00Japhy the acronym was ill-considered (or at least ...Japhy the acronym was ill-considered (or at least uncosidered!) when I chose my blog monkier...<BR/><BR/>"Simple" seems to work just as well!<BR/><BR/>Good points all though!A Simple Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06710927638399318664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-37508579870822688152008-03-13T18:09:00.000-04:002008-03-13T18:09:00.000-04:00A Simple Sinner (whose full name I spell out becau...<B>A Simple Sinner</B> (whose full name I spell out because your initials are less than savory...) - you bring up a good point, re: prayer for the dead. Last week, at the young adult Bible Study I lead, we were reading Psalm 30, and I mentioned that David seems somewhat unsure about what will happen to him when he dies.<BR/><BR/>This led to a discussion about the "limbo of the fathers" and Purgatory, and the difference between the two. Two of the members aren't Catholic (one is a Baptist who is learning about the Church, the other is the (Presbyterian?) fiancée of another member) so there was a bit of discussion about where Catholics got the idea for it from Scripture. I pointed out Maccabees, of course, as well as 1 Cor 3 and Rev 21:27. But I also mentioned that during the EP at Mass, we pray for the dead. I asked "who, that is dead, needs our prayers?" Surely those in Heaven don't, and those in Hell cannot benefit from them...<BR/><BR/>Anyway. Back to the topic.Jeffrey Pinyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08758581112217835988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-39189844101492539732008-03-13T17:51:00.000-04:002008-03-13T17:51:00.000-04:00"Remember, Lord, your people, especially those for...<I><B>"Remember, Lord, your people, especially those for whom we now pray, {names}. Remember all of us gathered here before you. You know how firmly we believe in you and dedicate ourselves to you. We offer you this sacrifice of praise for ourselves and those who are dear to us"</I></B><BR/><BR/>I especially appreciate this opportunity within the context of EP 1 to take a moment to remember the dead and the living whose intentions I bring to place on the altar - it is a reminder to fix my intentions at the offetory and then fix my intentions at communion.<BR/><BR/>Prayer for the dead has been so utterly neglected in the Catholic Church today. This is something we may all, one day, come to see the tragedy of in a most uncomfortable light.A Simple Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06710927638399318664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-1798685954431808982008-03-13T16:06:00.000-04:002008-03-13T16:06:00.000-04:00I'm always grabbed in EPI by the phrase "All who h...I'm always grabbed in EPI by the phrase "All who hold and teach the Catholic faith"--that's me! That should be all of us, not just the bishops! The imperative to TEACH the faith as part of our identity appeals to me as a parent, a catechist, and one who prays for the exaltation of the Church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-11706337663336690332008-03-10T19:11:00.000-04:002008-03-10T19:11:00.000-04:00I am with you on this, Fr. Fox. I use the EPI all ...I am with you on this, Fr. Fox. I use the EPI all the time now and have done so for about a year.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-30589523834883568222008-03-10T18:47:00.000-04:002008-03-10T18:47:00.000-04:00The Roman Canon absolutey deserves pride of place....The Roman Canon absolutey deserves pride of place. I totally agree.Joe of St. Thérèsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06506671882770822003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-6823673236962978752008-03-09T14:12:00.000-04:002008-03-09T14:12:00.000-04:00"I wouldn't consider the case of three separate li...<I><B>"I wouldn't consider the case of three separate liturgies in the Byzantine Rite the same as the single liturgy with a multitude of EPs that the Roman Rite has."</I></B><BR/><BR/>That is a good point of clarification I am glad you made. No one should be of the thinking that the prayers I mentioned are interchangeable... however similar the three different liturgies used by Greek Catholics are, they are three seperate liturgies with three seperate prayers.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the link!A Simple Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06710927638399318664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-62587067594028350212008-03-09T11:16:00.000-04:002008-03-09T11:16:00.000-04:00I wouldn't consider the case of three separate lit...I wouldn't consider the case of three separate <I>liturgies</I> in the Byzantine Rite the same as the single liturgy with a multitude of EPs that the Roman Rite has.<BR/><BR/>A Byzantine Catholic wouldn't use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom halfway, and then switch to the Liturgy of St. Basil, would they?<BR/><BR/><B>a simple sinner</B>: <A HREF="http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP.htm" REL="nofollow">This web site</A> has all 13 EPs.Jeffrey Pinyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08758581112217835988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-157277153088973062008-03-09T03:42:00.000-04:002008-03-09T03:42:00.000-04:00That would be "number"...I did find reference to t...That would be "number"...<BR/><BR/>I did find reference to the 72 historic Maronite anaphrae... in the current Maronite missal, there are only 6.A Simple Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06710927638399318664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-84526965450664902352008-03-09T03:34:00.000-04:002008-03-09T03:34:00.000-04:00"As far as the eastern Rites are concerned, yes, t...<I><B>"As far as the eastern Rites are concerned, yes, they have a multiplicity of Eucharistic Prayers. The Maronite Rite, if I'm not mistaken, has something like seventy EP's. The Byzantine Rite (i.e. that of the Greeks, Russians, Ukrainians, Melkites, and so forth) has several also; the one they use most often is the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, but they sometimes use the Liturgy of St. Basil the Great."</I></B><BR/><BR/>70 EPs in the Maronite Church? I would be interested in finding out more about that!<BR/><BR/>It is accurate enough to say we have three different EPs in the Greek Catholic churches - Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Basil, EP of the pre-sanctified gifts where there is a prayer that is consecratorial in nature when co-mingling the pre-consecrated bread and unconsecrated wine as the Holy gifts...<BR/><BR/>To be clear, however, these are all prescribed prayers, not "pick-ur-own". <BR/><BR/>Is there a website that has all 11 approved (general usage) Roman EPs to compare them?<BR/><BR/>Counting monastic rites as well as regional ones and the Anglican-use EP, I wonder what the total bumber of approved EPs in the West is...A Simple Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06710927638399318664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-9565651498454067122008-03-08T22:52:00.000-05:002008-03-08T22:52:00.000-05:00So true, what you write, about engaging the childr...So true, what you write, about engaging the children during Mass! We moved and are now at a new parish which didn't come with kneelers, so we are standing through consecration. <BR/><BR/>I asked the priest if he would consider ringing a bell at consecration. I pointed out that since we aren't kneeling, my children are only looking at the backs of the adults in front of them, and have no idea what is going on at that point during Mass. I said that if we had the bell, then they would be able to connect with what was going on better.<BR/><BR/>Sadly, he just said that there were different theologies on these things, and I wouldn't understand . . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-56969946742156747342008-03-08T20:59:00.000-05:002008-03-08T20:59:00.000-05:00Japhy, it's not true that Rome had only one Euchar...Japhy, it's not true that Rome had only one Eucharistic Prayer for 1300 years. Many people don't realize that the standardized Mass of the post-Tridentine era was not the one commonly celebrated in Rome. What became known as the Tridentine Mass was in fact the curial Mass (named because it was celebrated by the Roman Curia), which was a kind of "abridged" version. With the reforms of the Council of Trent, the curial Mass became the standardized Mass for Rome and much of the West.<BR/><BR/>But even in the centuries between Trent and Vatican II, there still did not exist only one Eucharistic Prayer for the Roman Rite. I alluded to this fact in my earlier post. The Dominicans and the Carthusians had their own Rite; these were abrogated after Vatican II. Milan had the Ambrosian Rite, and Spain had the Mozarabic Rite; these are still celebrated today, though they're not as widespread as they once used to be.<BR/><BR/>It is interesting that even though the reforms of Vatican II introduced a multiplicity of Eucharistic Prayers for the Roman Rite, nevertheless Vatican II ironically did more to bring uniformity to the Mass. The religious orders no longer have their own Rites; they now celebrate the Novus Ordo Mass of the Roman Rite.<BR/><BR/>As far as the eastern Rites are concerned, yes, they have a multiplicity of Eucharistic Prayers. The Maronite Rite, if I'm not mistaken, has something like seventy EP's. The Byzantine Rite (i.e. that of the Greeks, Russians, Ukrainians, Melkites, and so forth) has several also; the one they use most often is the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, but they sometimes use the Liturgy of St. Basil the Great.Fr. Ron Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16961731677722404956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-71146391077659805282008-03-08T16:45:00.000-05:002008-03-08T16:45:00.000-05:00The priest at my parish uses all 4.He rotates base...The priest at my parish uses all 4.He rotates based on the week being used for the Divine Office. Week 1 he uses Eucharistic Prayer 1 and so on. I think it is nice to hear all 4.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-39107631853183318632008-03-07T17:35:00.000-05:002008-03-07T17:35:00.000-05:00Father Ron:No, I enjoy your comments, no problem a...Father Ron:<BR/><BR/>No, I enjoy your comments, no problem at all. Your points are very good ones, as always.Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-67996166697384017152008-03-07T14:05:00.000-05:002008-03-07T14:05:00.000-05:00I just bring it up because it clearly wasn't the t...I just bring it up because it clearly wasn't the tradition of the Roman Rite for some 1300+ years to have a choice of Eucharistic Prayers.<BR/><BR/>And as the article I linked to states (n. 1), there was nothing in <I>Sacrosanctum Concilium</I> that even implied the restoration or creation of additional Eucharistic Prayers. One wonders how the faithful can actively participate when the Roman Canon is used at Mass!Jeffrey Pinyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08758581112217835988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-89751312319693563392008-03-07T13:55:00.000-05:002008-03-07T13:55:00.000-05:00"How many other Rites of the Catholic Church have ...<I><B>"How many other Rites of the Catholic Church have multiple Eucharistic Prayers?"</I></B><BR/><BR/>I believe most Eastern Churches have multiple prayers that are used at different times as dictated by the liturgical year (during Lent, Byzantines use a different one on Sundays...) <BR/><BR/>But as far as having a variety of prayers from which to somewhat arbitrarily choose, I am not familiar with any that do...<BR/><BR/>BUT, it may be the case with the Maronites and Chaldean Catholics as they made reforms to their own liturgies in the wake of the Second Vatican Council with the effect of leaving some of their liturgies looking very much like a "semetic language Novus Ordo" of sorts... They too may well have adopted options for different prayers... I really don't know.A Simple Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06710927638399318664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-89034114709344797992008-03-07T12:07:00.000-05:002008-03-07T12:07:00.000-05:00Fr. Ron Williams: I think that Fr. Fox is saying t...<B>Fr. Ron Williams:</B> I think that Fr. Fox is saying that, in the <I>Roman Rite</I>, the traditional <I>Roman Canon</I> should still retain pride of place.<BR/><BR/>As for "<I>why would the Church have introduced so many Eucharistic Prayers in the Roman Rite in such a small span of time?</I>" I invite you to read the link I posted in the first comment: "From One Eucharistic Prayer to Many".<BR/><BR/>How many other Rites of the Catholic Church have multiple Eucharistic Prayers?Jeffrey Pinyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08758581112217835988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-81756027830447261092008-03-07T11:20:00.000-05:002008-03-07T11:20:00.000-05:00Fr. Martin, as you commented, “I think the Roman C...Fr. Martin, as you commented, “I think the Roman Canon merits ‘pride of place’ in the celebration of the Mass…”<BR/><BR/>I know you to be a solid Catholic concerned about orthodox teaching. Therefore, I’m not suggesting that you have “…somehow run afoul of some expectation from Rome.” I’m merely advising you to be careful, because your comments can very easily be taken out of context.<BR/><BR/>The previous blogger made an interesting point that preferring one Eucharistic Prayer over another is substantially different from questioning the validity of a particular Eucharistic Prayer. I would agree with that assessment. Clearly, Father Martin, you’re not questioning validity, but rather you’re stating your personal preference or opinion. However, even that itself is risky in the public forum.<BR/><BR/>Because the Vatican has emphasized on numerous occasions that all the Eucharistic Prayers are equally valid, I don’t think it’s fair to say that any particular EP (in this case EP I, otherwise known as the Roman Canon) “…merits ‘pride of place.’” If that were true, then why would the Church have introduced so many Eucharistic Prayers in the Roman Rite in such a small span of time? Also, even before Vatican II the Roman Rite had a variety of liturgical styles, for example, the Dominican Rite, the Carthusian Rite, the Mozarabic Rite, the Liturgy of St. Ambrose, and the Liturgy of St. Augustine; some of these are still celebrated today. It is the same Paschal Mystery that is celebrated and the same Body and Blood of Christ that is consecrated on the altar, no matter which Eucharistic Prayer is invoked. For that reason alone, I personally cannot confidently say that one Eucharistic Prayer is better than another. What this means is that unless the Pope changes things and decides that only one Eucharistic Prayer is sufficient for the Roman Rite, then ALL the EP’s have “pride of place.”<BR/><BR/>There is an ecumenical factor that also needs to be considered. You opined that the Roman Canon has “pride of place” “…in the celebration of Mass.” As we all know, the Mass has been celebrated according to a variety of liturgical Rites since the very beginning. For example, the oldest Rite in continuous use is the Maronite Rite (in Lebanon), which is based on the Liturgy of St. James. It has an apostolic name attached to it because, according to tradition, it was St. James that created it. The Copts (in Egypt) celebrate Mass according to the Liturgy of St. Mark, which has an apostolic name for the same reason. By the way, I find it interesting that we have the “Roman Canon,” but no one calls it the “Liturgy of St. Peter” or the “Liturgy of St. Paul.”<BR/><BR/>The point is that, since the first century AD, the Church has consistently celebrated Mass according to a variety of liturgical traditions. And even though the style of worship might be different for each and the styles have changed over the course of the centuries, nevertheless it is the same Paschal Mystery that is celebrated and the same Body and Blood of Christ that is consecrated at all these various Masses. Again, I personally cannot confidently say that the “…Roman Canon merits ‘pride of place’ in the celebration of Mass.”<BR/><BR/>I hope you don’t take my comments too personally. You’re a good friend, and I have high regard for your intellectual opinions. I’m merely encouraging you to speak cautiously about this particular subject. Keep up the good work of being a good pastor!Fr. Ron Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16961731677722404956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-37807491854781098002008-03-06T15:30:00.000-05:002008-03-06T15:30:00.000-05:00Cardinal Arinze's criticism of the Neocatechumens ...<A HREF="http://www.zenit.org/article-15304?l=english" REL="nofollow">Cardinal Arinze's</A> criticism of the Neocatechumens was that they ONLY used the Second Prayer on principle. Your own account of the EWTN priests is that they had said only the Roman Canon was valid.<BR/><BR/>There is all the difference in the world between saying "I prefer Prayer X" or "I prefer Liturgy X" and saying "Prayer Y is invalid" or "Liturgy Y is invalid."CourageManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13446189695845365897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-58120803447192166972008-03-06T15:11:00.000-05:002008-03-06T15:11:00.000-05:00I used to think I would be OK with only ever heari...I used to think I would be OK with only ever hearing the Roman Canon... But then it occured to me that only ever hearing EP2 growing up (I honestly didn't know there was any others until I was a teen) I wouldn't call for that anymore.<BR/><BR/>Honestly, part of my misgivings about the multitude of approved prayers has been my greater sense of the catholicity and infailability of the Church. (As well as exposure to Eastern ep's and learning a little about ancient ep's that have fallen into disuse but were along the path we traveled to get here in the 21st century...) <BR/><BR/>I am no longer as prone to second guess what is officially taught in my quest to find "perfect liturgy" which I have finally given up the ghost on and admit we will never experience anywhere this side of the Vale of Tears.<BR/><BR/>One thing I think we can all be agreed on is that with the multiplication of available authorized prayers, there really is now (not that there ever was!) NO GOOD EXCUSE for the adlibbing that is still all too common.<BR/><BR/>Theatrical embellishment for emphasis rather burns my biscuits too...A Simple Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06710927638399318664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-90654882479003116232008-03-06T14:39:00.000-05:002008-03-06T14:39:00.000-05:00Father Williams:I appreciate your concern. I did n...Father Williams:<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your concern. I did not intend to say, nor do I think I did say, anything derogatory about any of the prayers, or about anyone using them. <BR/><BR/>But if what I wrote was insufficiently clear, I am happy to clarify: I think the Roman Canon merits "pride of place" in the celebration of the Mass, and my own judgment is to use it predominantly. But I do use the other prayers, at various points.<BR/><BR/>Are you suggesting that what I just proposed somehow runs afoul of some expectation from Rome? If so, can you say more please?Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14168956.post-81930549290831612332008-03-06T13:39:00.000-05:002008-03-06T13:39:00.000-05:00Dave, you should take up that matter with the Pope...Dave, you should take up that matter with the Pope.Fr. Ron Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16961731677722404956noreply@blogger.com