Saturday, July 15, 2006

'Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem'

Another scripture:

"When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, 'How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?"'Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been."

--The Book of Revelation, 6:9-11

15 comments:

Fr Martin Fox said...

I respect the convictions of those who are pacifists, but I don't agree with you.

If you were walking down the street, and saw someone being beaten up, and you couldn't call police -- what would you do?

Tracy said...

Orange Cross, you need to check the CCC starting with #2307 and read through that section. Yes, in an ideal world we would all be pacifists, but in a real world where innocent ppl are killed without cause... War is a very unfortunate thing but they are a real part of humanity.

Mary Martha said...

Am I bad Catholic because my position on Revelation is basically that it is the "As I lay Dying" of the Bible... and I never liked Faulkner.

I don't read it, I don't understand it and I am wary of people using it in discussion because it seems like you can say it means anything you want.

Yeah, I am hardly Catholic of the year.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Mary Martha:

I haven't read As I Lay Dying, so no comment on that. I found Faulkner difficult; I figured the defect was in me, as I find Flannery O'Connor somewhat the same -- I get some from her, but not as much as others.

Revelation is certainly the most difficult book of the Bible to interpret, although I maintain certain broad themes can be clearly drawn from it, when one reads it in light of the whole of Scripture and the analogy of faith.

Sadly, many parts of Scripture can, and are, misused in the fashion you describe.

I don't know if you objected to my citation of it; my purpose was to express a mood (i.e., "How long?"), no more.

Mary Martha said...

I absolutely was not objecting to your citation of it. I don't know enough about Revelation to have the ability to object.

Seriously, my response to any citation of Revelation is of the 'dog looking at a doorknob' variety... basically "Huh?"

You are right, much of scripture can be misused. It just seems in my experience that Revelation is the most often misrepresented.

Actually it seems to often be used like a battering ram by some 'Bible Christians' I know who like to try and 'save' me. 'Cause you know Catholics are all doomed.

I am sure you are citing it correctly. Just it's late and I am bored so I decided to comment.

Anonymous said...

Orange Cross,

First the CCC is the Cathechism of the Catholic Church (too long to write each time - so CCC!)

Second - yes - sometimes the answer is restraint (rather than pacifism). You are correct - sometimes the answer is to step between and let the sadness and anger of a person come at you as opposed to whomever they are directing it to - often themselves - and respond with love (that's the hard part!!) Most often - this is all done in word (which are often much more hurtful - long and short term - that a punch to the mouth!)

Third - but the dignity of the person - which is both spirit AND BODY - requires, at times, that I as a brother or sister in Christ and one of God's children - defend the bodies of my fellow siblings. Sometimes this is as a by stander and sometimes it is more official - police or soldier. Yes, this can and has been taken to an evil extreme by a small percentage of the people, but the concept, the idea, the requirement to defend and protect the dignity of the person is still there. This include protecting the dignity of the person committing the assault - a person is not living up to his dignity when he is beating the snot out of a store keeper or little old lady!!

God Bless - you can read the CCC on line in several places - EWTN website is one or google it.

Anonymous said...

Mary Martha,

You might try the Scott Hahn tapes (CD's, etc.) from St. Joseph Communication - he does Bible studies and has done one on Revelation. I found it very helpful as I have several other Bible studies of his that I have listened to!

God Bless

Anonymous said...

People usually apply the concept of pacifism to situations of physical violence. If we could learn that pacificism begins long before that escalation, much physical violence could be avoided.
What if pacificism began with tolerance of others' views? Remember, tolerance does not mean agreement.

Anonymous said...

Orange Cross,

What about the time that Jesus took a whip to the animal sellers and money changers in the outer court of the Temple and drove them out. That sounds fairly violent to me.

Anonymous said...

Orange Cross

This is a difficult paradox - be peaceful but defend the weak and poor and innocent.

In one of your responses you say that possibly 'He (Jesus) made a mistake' - when he cleared the money lenders from the temple. NOPE - can't be!! He - Jesus - is God - so the job description is NO MISTAKES!! If He made a mistake - He isn't God and His death on the cross didn't do anything. So - no - He didn't make a mistake.

What it does mean is that He did this and we need to understand it and if it doesn't fit our concepts - then we need to change. What He did would be called Righteous Anger.

Below you said -
"Ah tolerance, I like it. I also feel that people have enough in common that pacifism and a bold passive resistance in the face of oppression will work for peace."

My question - WHEN? Give me an example when this worked. The ONLY two times that you MIGHT say it sort of worked was the Civil Rights Movement in the US and Ghandi in India - but both of these had the person/country of power with a belief in right and wrong - a Judeo/Christian foundation. And even these had more than passifist reactions. So - name one - please.

Terry Nelson said...

Father, I very much appreciate your citation from the Book of Revelations. It appears very timely to me. Pacifist or not, everyone suffers, it seems to me we are rather impotent to change history, as well as the future, yet perhaps not the present - we may hopehowever. Thanks for a great blog!

Anonymous said...

Orange Cross,

I am a warrior, a prayer warrior, who has fought some nasty spiritual battles on behalf on others.

I believe in peace, the peace that passes understanding, where we can welcome all into our homes as brothers and sisters.

I know that we, in this world, cannot expect that kind of peace. Jesus, my commander in chief, says that he comes to bring division, not peace. (Luke 12:52-53).

Since you believe in peace, how could peaceful men and women have prevented the extermination of the Jews before and during WWII?

Anonymous said...

Thich Nhat Hanh tells of a Buddhist monk who gave his student a profound truth in story form:
"There was a pirate who kidnapped a helpless girl. He raped her, then killed her and threw her body overboard. I am the girl. I am the pirate."

The story describes how we are all one humanity, including its failures to love. But Jesus glorified humankind when he became man himself. In John's gospel he prays to the Father that all become one, as he and the Father are one. When we fail to honor Christ's teaching to love, we step outside unity and create discord, placing ourselves at its root.

Understanding, not bombs, is the key to the door that opens on peace. The reason we often don't see this is that we long so desparately for the quick fix.
But even if we can't fix nations, there are plenty of things each single person can do to foster peace right here, right now. Why not begin?

Fr Martin Fox said...

Terry:

Thanks for your kind words.

Just to be clear: it is the Book of Revelation -- singular, not plural. That helps with the understanding of the book; it's not a series of "revelations" that are frightening and confusing; but about the sole Revelation of God to humanity, Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

Orange Cross,

Yes, I put on spiritual armor, especially the peace of God.

I, truely wish that non-violent protest worked, but unfortunately many people are not decent people. It failed in Israel, at the beginning of the current infatada (sp). Christian Arab business men tried it, but it was put down harshly.

It failed in China, at Tinammen Square. The students and workers were just mowed down by the army.